The HBW been loading them since 1978 in 38 special - the old load data for target loads was 2.5 - 2.8 grains of bullseye in 38. Never loaded them in 357 brass. I still load and shoot them today. I have probably shot 30k of those over the years maybe even more never counted them. Was all I shot in competition target shooting ( paper targets) at 50 feet. I have never loaded them hotter as was need to.