Sizing bottle neck brass

So, I was reading online about expander balls and sizing brass. The discussion was about pulling the brass over the expander ball vs pushing the brass over the expander. They were saying that they take the expander ball out of their die when sizing the brass, then run the brass over the expander in a second step. The idea was that it is easier to push the brass over the ball opposed to pulling it over, you get less case stretch in the shoulder area when not pulling your brass over it, and make your sized brass more consistant ( less runout). So I decided to try it. So far I’ve done 200 7.62x54R, 125 243win, 50 30-40 krag, and 50 350 rem mag I really like this way of sizing brass, the only con is that it adds an extra step to the process, the pros are that it is easier, requires less lube inside the case neck, and the variance in my trim lengths has shrunk. I haven’t measured anything on my brass except length, so I don’t know if it is way more consistant, but my trim lengths are much more consistant which leads me to believer that it would be more consistant overall, since my trimmer bases trim length off of the shoulder.


JTD

I may have to give this a shot when I finally move. Everything is packed away sadly

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Originally Posted by JeffreyDeGraff

So, I was reading online about expander balls and sizing brass. The discussion was about pulling the brass over the expander ball vs pushing the brass over the expander. They were saying that they take the expander ball out of their die when sizing the brass, then run the brass over the expander in a second step. The idea was that it is easier to push the brass over the ball opposed to pulling it over, you get less case stretch in the shoulder area when not pulling your brass over it, and make your sized brass more consistant ( less runout). So I decided to try it. So far I’ve done 200 7.62x54R, 125 243win, 50 30-40 krag, and 50 350 rem mag I really like this way of sizing brass, the only con is that it adds an extra step to the process, the pros are that it is easier, requires less lube inside the case neck, and the variance in my trim lengths has shrunk. I haven’t measured anything on my brass except length, so I don’t know if it is way more consistant, but my trim lengths are much more consistant which leads me to believer that it would be more consistant overall, since my trimmer bases trim length off of the shoulder.


JTD

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Originally Posted by Holland

I may have to give this a shot when I finally move. Everything is packed away sadly

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I hope everything is going well with the move and wedding.


JTD

Thanks! Wedding went very well we are just waiting to find a place to live and I can finish what I have to do to move

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Originally Posted by JeffreyDeGraff

I hope everything is going well with the move and wedding.


JTD

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I have been playing the idea of no expander ball with separate neck expansion. For me, it would be best to use a tapered expander ball. That would be like Hornady and RCBS use currently.

I've got two Lee universal expanders. The NOE expanders would allow picking ID of the neck. I wonder if Lee mandrel sizers would also work very well if neck sizing. Might take a look at standard Lee dies. Those dies would get you there without an extra step. I've had RCBS send oversize expander balls for cast bullets.

Point being there are more than one way to deal with expanding bottle necks.

I like the Redding tapered expanders. They are slick. Ive got them in my 257 Roberts improved, 338-06 improved, and 375 whelen improved dies. They are great when necking up brass or expanding sized brass.

I was trying using stuff I already had instead of buying more stuff. I think it is a solid way of doing things but is easier with die sets that have threaded decapping rods.

I tried the lee collet neck sizing mandrel to expand brass. Didn’t like it. I love the die as a neck sizer though.


JTD

The Lee Collet dies work very well. There was much on the net about modifying these dies when first introduced. I had two sets of 35 RCBS Whelen dies for custom made rifles.Chambers are different enough for two sets of dies. The introduction of tapered expanders here was with 338 Federal RCBS dies. Also, with the Hornady 9.3x57. I ordered from RCBS two decapping stems for the Whelen dies with tapered expander balls. Screwed the old ones out new one's in.

For 308 cast bullets the NOE expanders work great installed in the Lee Universal Expander die. Those little plugs do a grand job of mating case ID to OD of lead bullets. Those NOE plugs are not expensive.


Regular Lee dies can be used to expand necks. The older RCBS dies will get new stem assembles with tapered expander. Great for spare parts. Bubba uses Channelock's as a combination tools for working on reloading dies. I'm not sure that old style expander balls may have been a victim of the internet Guru's. Pushing those old style expander balls through a case neck is an expander no-no here. YMMV

I remember my experiments with 35 Whelen and 338-06 with lopsided necks using Lyman M dies. No more. The tapered expanded ball rule.

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Originally Posted by Mowgli Terry

The Lee Collet dies work very well. There was much on the net about modifying these dies when first introduced. I had two sets of 35 RCBS Whelen dies for custom made rifles. The introduction of tapered expanders here was with 338 Federal RCBS dies. Also, with the Hornady 9.3x57. I ordered from RCBS two decapping stems for the Whelen dies with tapered expander balls. Screwed the old ones out new one's in.

For 308 cast bullets the NOE expanders work great installed in the Lee Universal Expander die. Those little plugs do a grand job of mating case ID to OD of lead bullets. Those NOE plugs are not expensive.


Lee dies can be used to expand necks. Those dies have no expander ball. From now on the older RCBS dies new stem assembles with tapered expander ball will replace the old assembly. Great for spare parts. Bubba uses Channelock's as a combination tools for working on reloading dies. I'm not sure that old style expander balls may have been a victim of the internet Guru's. Pushing those old style expander balls through a case neck is a no-no. YMMV

I remember my experiments with 35 Whelen and 338-06 with lopsided necks using Lyman M dies. No more. The tapered expanded ball rule.

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I have definitely been down the lopsided neck road before. They are ugly.


JTD

I currently load for 2 cartridges that are "somewhat oversized" , one is supposed be .268 and is actually .270+ the other should about .312/3 and is almost .318 . I ended up with a custom bushing die for the 6.5×50 @ .270 . The .318 7.7×58 I found a 8×57 neck die suitable for 8×57J with a .318 bore .

Shooting cast and paper patch in both rifles as a means to reach a desired dia for accuracy . It quickly becomes obvious to me that sizing a neck per cycle upwards of .1 inch down , up , fired , is going to be hard on brass .
I've long been a neck/short size guy due to having started with a number of generous chambers that needed all the help they could get . I've made a few oversized expanders always with a long taper both ways and usually with barely enough room to size the neck .

The mandrill collet sizers seem like a really good idea , but after reading about adjusting the mandrill to get desired neck dia it seems that would effect the shoulder sizing and bump by stopping the neck sizing large . I don't any of those to test the theory .

The bushing die is a great solution . You don't have to expand the you just size it and it's done . But then for best results you need to neck turn to ensure consistent neck ID via neck thickness and annealing to avoid inconsistent spring back .

Adding the extra step is cheap but consistency of lube and speed of operations can become a thing too .

That's a lot of pessimism from a usually optimistic guy .

Carbide expander balls are probably about as good as it'll get for "hunter grade" precision . The virtue in them is that they are slick and unless you have a standard die on the small side and an over sized expander , let's say a 308 that takes the neck down to .304 ID then drags a .309/.310 ball back through it , is that there's minimal contact area and very low drag on that .
Without drudging off into metallurgy and why stuff sticks and drags that's the best I can do .

There is one more thing but it ventures in custom sizers , that is to lap the die neck dia of the sizer larger where you have one sizing in excess of needs . In reality a 308 neck really never needs to be less than .3055 , .3065 is probably enough but most dies will run them down to .304 , just in case the end user has thin brass ........

Ive never come across anything that was too generously chambered or the bore was overly big. Ive dealt more with tight chambers and short throats. There is one mosin M38 that I do need to slug the bore on because I’m curious about it.

Ive used the lee collet neck sizers, bushing dies and standard neck and FL dies. Ive never had any custom die or die parts made.

Bushing dies do work better with neck turned brass, it is recommended to use the expander ball with them if your necks are not turned. The lee collet die does well either way.

Most of my plain Jane dies give me .003 neck tension, some a little more, some a little less. For most applications I find that is adequate.


JTD

I had a Savage 110 that I couldn't reach the lands and keep a Hornady 150 BTSP in the case securely . With a cast 312-230 , NOE version , I had an OAL of 3.99" to reach the lands . The much newer 308 sister I think had the same throat .

I bought an old Gew 98 , turned out to be 1916 DWM action . The throat and neck were so washed out that a fired case would slip fit a 301618 , paper patch core at .3015 , which wasn't a big deal but the muzzle was .277×.284 and it was chambered in probably a 280 B Square . A little straighter case and .09 shorter at the neck shoulder than the 280 AI . It's a 7×57 now .

The only thing Ive had even close to a match or minimum chamber was a Rem 760 sometimes that thing wouldn't take its own 1X back in the chamber .....