Reloading for Service Rifle - 223 (New Guy question)

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06-08-2019, 06:23 AM
Shamr0ck

Reloading for Service Rifle - 223 (New Guy question)

Good morning all.

In my intro I promised some new guy questions and here's the first (of many)...

Background
I bought a D550 back in 2013 when I couldn't find production ammo to shoot in my pistol. Living in MD, the situation was worsened by the General Assemblies politics and the passage of even more restrictive laws impacting the law abiding gun owner - this drove ammo costs up further and made it more scarce. I've loaded 45ACP and 9x19 (maybe 1,000 rounds each) and while I'm comfortable with the press and processes, I'm sure I've still lots to learn. Up till now, I've been using purchased brass (new/once fired), Sierra 230 gr RN for the 45 and Berry's plated 115gr RN for the 9x19.

I haven't spent as much time as I'd like shooting as I've been busy with work and supporting my youngest as she fell in love with 22 3-position shooting and International Air Rifle matches. Lots of $$ invested in rifles, ammo and travel for her and now that she's headed to college, I'm gearing up to get started myself.

I bought a White Oak A2 Service Rifle upper after seeing the CMP matches at Camp Perry one year (LittleShamr0ck was there to compete in her events). Her needs eclipsed mine however and I've never put a round down the tube.

That brings us to now...

I'm looking for some lessons learned and guidance around load development for the service rifle game.

I do not yet have:
- Brass
- Dies
- primers
- a way to clean brass
- a chronograph

I do have:
- 1,000 77gr SMKs
- 500 80gr SMKs
- Reloader 15 (recommendation from another dad on the Jr Rifle Team)
- 250 pieces of Lapua 223 Brass (Birthday gift)

Reloader15 doesn't measure well in a Dillon measure as it's extruded so I've put a RCBS ChargeMaster on the 'wish list' for Father's Day, birthday and Christmas. I also sent Scott Parker a check yesterday for a tuned Ohaus beam scale.

Questions
I know where I can get brass :) But should I care whose brass? From reading it seems like a lot of folks prefer Lake City brass, but I don't know why that is. I realize if I choose LC brass I'll need to swage out the military crimp.

whose dies should I get? I'd much prefer to buy once/cry once and while Dillon's carbide dies are +- $180, I'd hate to make that investment and then choose a different seating die (as an example)

I 'think' i want a small base full length sizing die given my reading so far - need to confirm if the Dillon die is a small base

How do I choose a primer? I see a lot of talk about CCI41s but never see them mentioned in threads discussing precision reloading.

I'm inclined to dry tumble as shiny isn't important to me

What else do I need to think about?

Thanks in advance!
06-08-2019, 02:38 PM
Holland

Reloading for Service Rifle - 223 (New Guy question)

As far as brass goes, LC is pretty consistent and Wes sells fully processed pieces so no swage needed. Just load and shoot

For dies, I don’t run anything that high speed but I tend to do all my brass prep first so that’s taken care of. Give Mighty Armory’s sizing die a look. They’ve been known to make great stuff.
https://www.mightyarmory.com/
I have Lee for 90% of my dies but I think you can’t go wrong with any set you choose

For primers I just get whats available to me and work loads for that. If it’s for plinking and I’m shooting moderately light charges I may use other primers for that load with little change. 51s have a harder cup and are meant for service rifle but I’ve never had issues with CCI400s or WSRP personally. But I’m not sure if Dillon has primers you can/can’t use in the press

If I missed anything feel free to ask [emoji16]
And if brass prep becomes a chore check out a giraud tri-way trimmer. It saves hours on brass prep especially if you’re running large batches
06-08-2019, 03:04 PM
Shamr0ck

Thank you!

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06-09-2019, 02:21 AM
Big Eddy

LC is good quality brass and would be a good choice for 99 percent of most shooting needs. It is the brass used by all US military forces, thus it is readily available and relatively inexpensive.
Lapua is premium brass and would only be advantageous when you are tying to squeeze the last little bit of accuracy out of your ammo.
I use CCI 400 primers and have never had a problem with them.
I have a Dillon carbide 223 sizing die and it’s a good die, but it doesn’t make ammo any better than my Redding or RCBS dies, it just cost more.
For straight wall handgun, carbide dies are almost a necessity but because the brass still needs to be lubed for bottle necked rifle, they are not.
06-09-2019, 03:07 AM
SAWMAN

I believe that shooting service rifle you do not need to overthink the accuracy thing. It is not like taking your 223Rem bolt gun with its 1" bull barrel to a benchrest match.
I would agree with the above in that once fired LCC (or others) will be good. Just stick will all the same headstamp including year.
I would also stick with CCI 400 or 450 depending on your choice of powder. I use AII 450's no matter the bullet or powder used.
I shot several different disciplines but never service rifle. But I have a buddy that was a champ at it. I will give him a call and see what he has to add. --- SAWMAN
06-09-2019, 03:18 AM
Shamr0ck

Reloading for Service Rifle - 223 (New Guy question)

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAWMAN

I believe that shooting service rifle you do not need to overthink the accuracy thing. It is not like taking your 223Rem bolt gun with its 1" bull barrel to a benchrest match.
I would agree with the above in that once fired LCC (or others) will be good. Just stick will all the same headstamp including year.
I would also stick with CCI 400 or 450 depending on your choice of powder. I use AII 450's no matter the bullet or powder used.
I shot several different disciplines but never service rifle. But I have a buddy that was a champ at it. I will give him a call and see what he has to add. --- SAWMAN

Thx!

One of the thing s I want to get out of this process is an understanding of the why certain decisions are made...

How does one go about making the primer decision based on powder?

Given a supply of reloader 15 I’d like to start with that though I know it doesn’t measure well in a Dillon (too frugal to not use - but admittedly it may be less expensive to use a ball/flake powder which will)

Related ? - I’m familiar with powder lists by bullet from my reloading manuals and I’ve seen a powder burn rate chart. What I’ve looked for and not found is a reference which lists powder type (ball, flake, extruded) by powder as a way to help decide which to use.

Reloader 15 is said to be pretty temperature stable - wonder if there is a resource which speaks to that too?

Thanks again to all for weighing in

ETA - just saw the 450 is spec’d as a magnum primer for ball powder and the 400 is a standard SR primer

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06-09-2019, 08:10 AM
SouthernCoyote

1 Attachment(s)

Here is my load with my recent build for long range varmint and Target using a White Oak Armament barrel. No pressure signs whatsoever, but it's so damn consistent it's hard to want to change. This my target load for the 77smk projectiles. The 77smk like a lil more jump instead of being closer to the lands. The WOA barrels are second to none. This is with their 24" optics match. My barrel is bedded to the receiver by me using loctite 620.

Attachment 1326
06-09-2019, 08:21 AM
SouthernCoyote

I'll note, the charges are with a Chargemaster 1500. The dies are LEE dies. Loaded on my Dillon 550B using a powder funnel for individual weighted charges. I use Forster dies for my bolt guns. So to those who think LEE aren't good, my AR rifles show otherwise. I use lots of different projectiles so I mark my LEE seating die with a fine tip sharpie and abbreviate the projectile on the marks so I have a ballpark range to get them dialed in, then adjust using my base to ogive measuring tools.
06-10-2019, 05:29 PM
72Camaro

And your vote for WOA barrels, I'm with you. They are spectacular.
06-10-2019, 05:33 PM
SouthernCoyote

No doubt. I'll be a WOA customer for life. They know how to make damn good barrels!
06-11-2019, 04:59 AM
Shamr0ck

Quote:

Originally Posted by SouthernCoyote

I'll note, the charges are with a Chargemaster 1500. The dies are LEE dies. Loaded on my Dillon 550B using a powder funnel for individual weighted charges. I use Forster dies for my bolt guns. So to those who think LEE aren't good, my AR rifles show otherwise. I use lots of different projectiles so I mark my LEE seating die with a fine tip sharpie and abbreviate the projectile on the marks so I have a ballpark range to get them dialed in, then adjust using my base to ogive measuring tools.

Fantastic group and information! Thx for the details...

I’ve been doing a lot of reading and found ‘Konrad’ from a thread on the us rifle team sight. He shoots a lot of service rifle matches in IL and he has shared a good deal of information on both YouTube and a site he maintains

http://sw-hearing.com/reloading/relo...procedure.html

If I read his loading procedure correctly, it seems that he doesn’t crimp and relies on neck tension alone. Is this common in a gas gun loaded for competition? Creative solution to hand make a powder check in die position 3 on his 550B. Sliding seating to position 4 makes for some awkward mechanics though...

Which die position do you seat the bullet in? And if position 3, do you crimp in 4 or simply not use?

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06-11-2019, 05:17 AM
SouthernCoyote

My setup on my 550B for my precision AR is as follows:

1 - LEE collet neck sizing die in case there is a neck that is out of round, and it does happen when you store brass already prepped.

2 - powder die with funnel on top for pouting individual weighted charges from my Chargemaster 1500.

3 - LEE seating die marked with positions for different projectiles.

4 - LEE factory crimp die. I'll use it for different projectiles since I do my varmint loads on the same tool head. I've experimented a lil with each projectile and going some like a crimp and others don't.

I highly recommend AR Comp powder because it's extremely temp stable and produces insane consistency. It may not be the fastest velocity, but consistency beats all other things in my opinion.
06-11-2019, 05:26 AM
Shamr0ck

Quote:

Originally Posted by SouthernCoyote

My setup on my 550B for my precision AR is as follows:

1 - LEE collet neck sizing die in case there is a neck that is out of round, and it does happen when you store brass already prepped.

2 - powder die with funnel on top for pouting individual weighted charges from my Chargemaster 1500.

3 - LEE seating die marked with positions for different projectiles.

4 - LEE factory crimp die. I'll use it for different projectiles since I do my varmint loads on the same tool head. I've experimented a lil with each projectile and going some like a crimp and others don't.

I highly recommend AR Comp powder because it's extremely temp stable and produces insane consistency. It may not be the fastest velocity, but consistency beats all other things in my opinion.

Thank you sir for the details.

Will start reading up on AR Comp!

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06-11-2019, 05:29 AM
SouthernCoyote

You are welcome. I like it enough that I buy it in 8lb jugs, usually 2-3 at a time.. works excellent in both bolt action and AR. A fellow shooter uses it exclusively in .308 as well.
06-11-2019, 09:51 AM
Shamr0ck

Quote:

Originally Posted by SouthernCoyote

You are welcome. I like it enough that I buy it in 8lb jugs, usually 2-3 at a time.. works excellent in both bolt action and AR. A fellow shooter uses it exclusively in .308 as well.

Do you see any consistency issues from one jug (lot) to another? BS laws here in MD prevent me from purchasing more than 4 - 5 pounds at once but MD law doesn’t govern behavior outside its borders and WV and PA are both easy drives with good vendors

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06-11-2019, 12:04 PM
SouthernCoyote

Never had any consistency issues at all. It and RL16 are the most consistent powders I've ever tried.
06-11-2019, 12:10 PM
Sgt Greybeard

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shamr0ck

Do you see any consistency issues from one jug (lot) to another? BS laws here in MD prevent me from purchasing more than 4 - 5 pounds at once but MD law doesn’t govern behavior outside its borders and WV and PA are both easy drives with good vendors

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Is the limit something recent for MD? I mail ordered an 8# jug of H335 right before Christmas with no problems.

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06-11-2019, 03:23 PM
Shamr0ck

Reloading for Service Rifle - 223 (New Guy question)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sgt Greybeard

Is the limit something recent for MD? I mail ordered an 8# jug of H335 right before Christmas with no problems.

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Fire marshal only wants you to have 8lbs of powder at any one time and the retailer I use will only sell 4 or 5 pound jugs at a time - he tells me he is restricted from selling 8lb jugs to a md resident. His house, his rules so rather than argue, I convert raw powder to loaded rounds as quickly as I can.

I pay only cash and only with a few vendors I trust so I minimize the big data footprint.

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