300 AAC Blackout / HC / CFE BLK

I'm looking for load data for 300 AAC Blackout with Hard Cast bullets and Hodgdon CFE BLK powder.

Hodgdon has no data for it and, when I contacted them, told me they don't have any squirrelled away. I also contacted Lyman to see if their 50th Edition. They report that they don't have HC data for CFE BLK in the 300 Blackout section.

Anyone know of a valid source for this? I'd be willing to buy a manual if it has the data. If I must I will buy the Lyman and a different powder but I'm sitting on a pound of CFE BLK that I bought just for this purpose, because Hodgdon went on about how this was made specifically for 300 AAC Blackout and yada yada yada.

Thanks in advance for the help.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Will get back to you after work,I been reading I have it at home,in a book dont remember which one . Or if was online.

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Originally Posted by Bentstick

Will get back to you after work,I been reading I have it at home,in a book dont remember which one . Or if was online.

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Thanks. I'm looking forward to it.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Start with Accurate 1680 data. The powders are very similar. Both are St. Marks ball powders, and both are very close in burn rates.

Technically both powders are on the slow side for 300 BLK as the pressures developed are well below SAAMI MAP (~30kpsi vs 55kpsi), but the amount of gas generate and the burn rate happens to work well enough to cycle an AR. So this is one load and powder that would be hard to get into trouble with.

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Originally Posted by Jay Andrew

Start with Accurate 1680 data. The powders are very similar. Both are St. Marks ball powders, and both are very close in burn rates.

Technically both powders are on the slow side for 300 BLK as the pressures developed are well below SAAMI MAP (~30kpsi vs 55kpsi), but the amount of gas generate and the burn rate happens to work well enough to cycle an AR. So this is one load and powder that would be hard to get into trouble with.

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Thanks.

I found Accurate's load data PDF for 300 BLK:
http://www.accuratepowder.com/wp-con...ckout_Data.pdf

I'm not seeing any Hard Cast bullets listed. Am I looking in the wrong place?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

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Originally Posted by Jay Andrew

Use the jacketed data. It is generally safe to substitute jacketed data when loading cast bullets. Pressures generated by cast bullets are less then that generated by jacket due to engraving force being lower.


Reloading...it’s like knitting for men.

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I'm not claiming any particular expertise. I do know, however, that starting load data for HC is almost always greater than for Jacketed, though the only cartridges I've reloaded HC for have been 30-30 and 9mm.

Thanks.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

There is quite a bit of jacketed bullet data using CFE BLK on the Hodgdon site. --- SAWMAN

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Originally Posted by lklawson

Thanks. I'm looking forward to it.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

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Still lookin, not in my books,so must of been on the web,will keep searching and post a link when I find it again sorry can't help at the moment

DO NOT substitute Lead and Jacketed data for one another.
Lead seals the bore tighter, and because of its 'Sticky" nature, generates pressures higher and faster than Jacketed bullets
Look for published data, or multiple sources and then work up loads that are safe for YOUR weapon

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Originally Posted by Wes Sage

DO NOT substitute Lead and Jacketed data for one another.
Lead seals the bore tighter, and because of its 'Sticky" nature, generates pressures higher and faster than Jacketed bullets
Look for published data, or multiple sources and then work up loads that are safe for YOUR weapon

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Wes, I have never heard that before.

Any data or reports you’ve come across show that?

Substituting jacketed data for lead is pretty common in the casting world.


Reloading...it’s like knitting for men.

Yep, all my reload manuals.
Lead loads are normally LOWER for the same velocity.
Jacketed take more powder, as jacketed bullets do not seal the bore, are slicker, and allow for blow by, and a drop in chamber pressures.

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Originally Posted by Jay Andrew

Wes, I have never heard that before.

Any data or reports you’ve come across show that?

Substituting jacketed data for lead is pretty common in the casting world.


Reloading...it’s like knitting for men.

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I disagree, and here’s why.

Lead bullets have lower engraving force then copper jacketed bullets. Peak pressure is usually realized as the bullet is being engraved with the rifling.

This is represented in software like QuickLOAD as an offset. Once the bullet is engraved and begins to travel down the bore pressure drops precipitously. The small amount of gas the blows by a jacketed or lead bullet, has little affect on overall pressure as the volume behind the bullet is rapidly expanding dropping the pressure faster then the blow by.

When developing loads for a ballistics manual a max load is worked up based on SAAMI MAP. From there ~10% reduction is taken to generate a start load. So if the max load has more powder then the start load would also have more powder.

For a given bullet weight, a cast bullet will allow more powder to be place behind it then a jacketed bullet before it hits SAAMI MAP. Thus it’s max and starting loads will be higher then a Jacketed bullet.

I’m a faceless nameless guy on the internet. So take it with a grain of salt and do what you feel is best for your firearms and loads. Using a start charge for a Jacketed bullet for a cast billed of the same weight, when cast load data is unavailable, is pretty common.


Reloading...it’s like knitting for men.

I’ve seen it both ways but as a general rule I follow what Wes does if there is no data to support it.
Here are a few loads of 9mm, same weight, same powder types.

Attachment 1111Attachment 1112

"Using a start charge for a Jacketed bullet for a cast billed of the same weight, when cast load data is unavailable, is pretty common."

That I will agree with!!!
The rest, not so much, and every gun will be different, and every reloader has the responsibility to not offer 'Suggestions" on what may work or what they "Heard"
And the one looking for data, especially on the internet from complete strangers, has the responsibility to find published data, or to work up their own loads and take responsibility for said loads

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Originally Posted by SAWMAN

There is quite a bit of jacketed bullet data using CFE BLK on the Hodgdon site. --- SAWMAN

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Yes, you are right. But I'm looking for Lead Hard Cast instead of Jacketed.

Thanks.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

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Originally Posted by Wes Sage

Look for published data, or multiple sources and then work up loads that are safe for YOUR weapon

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I am looking for published sources, or at least a safe starting point. The problem is that I haven't been able to find published data for CFE BLK powder and Lead Hard Cast bullets. It would sure be helpful if you had published data you could point me to. I'll buy a book if it has the data.

Hodgdon recommended the Lyman 50th. for cast data but Lyman specifically told me that the book doesn't include data for CFE BLK and that I should contact Hodgdon (enter infinite loop here).

Thanks.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

That is the issue with reloading sometimes. There is 0 data for what you want to do.
In that case there are only 2 options:
Get a different powder and bullet combination that is listed OR 9If you are a long time reloader) work up loads on your own with lots of combined data and research to support the theories you have for loading that combo.
I have had to do it quite a few times, and have come up with some pretty awesome loads, and others just failed miserably

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Originally Posted by lklawson

I am looking for published sources, or at least a safe starting point. The problem is that I haven't been able to find published data for CFE BLK powder and Lead Hard Cast bullets. It would sure be helpful if you had published data you could point me to. I'll buy a book if it has the data.

Hodgdon recommended the Lyman 50th. for cast data but Lyman specifically told me that the book doesn't include data for CFE BLK and that I should contact Hodgdon (enter infinite loop here).

Thanks.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

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We don't know anything about the weight of your proposed cast bullet(s).
With most weight projectiles CFE BLK produces much lower pressures than say 1680, even though both are close to the same in velocity and case volume aspect.
In this case you "might" be safe substituting a cast bullet for the jacketed data, to a point.
Under charging could could produce over pressure (in this case it's very doubtful) but a stuck bullet may be possible if you get to far below a certain suggested starting load. Make sure the bullet actually comes out the barrel, then make sure it will cycle the gas system (if this is the case too).
Seating depth is another issue, do you use an overall length gauge? I had no data for the powder coated cast bullet I'm using, this helped arriving at a length, trial and error with a chronograph and powder charge did the rest.
Compare the pressures of 1680 (my favorite in this caliber with jacketed) to CFE BLK using the same size projectile. You will start getting a good correlation of the two.

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Originally Posted by Benny

We don't know anything about the weight of your proposed cast bullet(s).

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I didn't specify a bullet because I haven't purchased any so it's a blank slate. Any published data on ANY cast bullet with CFE BLK in 300 Blackout would be sufficient. Even if there's only one published load for a cast bullet and it's either heavy or light, then I'd buy that bullet. There's plenty of vendors for cast bullets.

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With most weight projectiles CFE BLK produces much lower pressures than say 1680, even though both are close to the same in velocity and case volume aspect.
In this case you "might" be safe substituting a cast bullet for the jacketed data, to a point.
Under charging could could produce over pressure (in this case it's very doubtful) but a stuck bullet may be possible if you get to far below a certain suggested starting load. Make sure the bullet actually comes out the barrel, then make sure it will cycle the gas system (if this is the case too).
Seating depth is another issue, do you use an overall length gauge? I had no data for the powder coated cast bullet I'm using, this helped arriving at a length, trial and error with a chronograph and powder charge did the rest.
Compare the pressures of 1680 (my favorite in this caliber with jacketed) to CFE BLK using the same size projectile. You will start getting a good correlation of the two.

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Seating depth? Naturally, I use callipers to verify the proper COAL. What that seating depth actually is, is part of the load data, right? I don't have a seating depth or COAL because I don't have any load data for cast bullets and CFE BLK. That's why I'm asking experts.

I'm not trying to tease out someone's pet load. I'm looking for a published load. What I was really hoping for is for some one to reply, "Yeah, XYZ Manual has the load data you're after, buy that book." And I'd go buy it. I was hoping that was what the Lyman 50th would be but apparently it's not.

I'll experiment a little bit but I want a published load, or a "very close" load to start from. I'm not Mad Scientist enough to want to work up an unkown load from scratch without any published data for an entire class of one of the components (LHC). For my own safety and sanity, I'm just not interested in doing that. If that is one of the appealing things about the hobby for you or anyone else, that's great. I love it that you (or someone else) wants to do that. But it's not part of my interest. I reload in order to stretch my ammo budget. I get more rounds for the same dollars, which in my book is saving money. So I'm not reloading in order to get the most perfectly optimized load for my gun, I'm reloading to get a load which pretty closely approximates commercial loads and/or allows me to practice more for the same dollars. :)

It seems that there, literally, are no published loads for LHC bullets in 300 AAC and any Hodgdon powders, never mind CFE BLK in particular. To be honest with you, I find this mind-boggling. Hodgdon went on at length about how CFE BLK was specifically made for 300 AAC, stretching from sub-sonic suppressed heavy bullets up through super with light bullets but then have no data, and apparently no interest in it, for hard cast, which are common use among reloaders for heavy subsonic loads. That's a little like a company marketing their SUV to outdoorsmen and campers and then insisting that you can't put a tow package on it. :P You know that outdoorsmen want their vehicle to be able to tow stuff and you know that reloaders want to be able to use LHC.

I guess I'm just going to give up on using LHC bullets and the CFE BLK powder. For now, I've got a number of other jacketed bullets on hand which I can use. But they're a lot more expensive and I don't really want to use them for plinking. I'll probably also purchase some of the Ranier bullets because Ranier says I can use Jacketed load data and there are published COAL & related data for the Ranier. I still might buy the Lyman manual and use a different manufacturer's powder if it has any LHC data listed (I still don't know if it does).

Thanks for reading this thread and trying to help me out guys, but it looks like it's a dead end, at least for now.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

FOR ME - - -> If I needed data for a hardcast load that weighed 150,168,200 grains,etc,etc,etc,I would simply pick a jacketed load of the same weight in the book. There are usually at least three loads listed with each powder. I would use the lightest charge of the three and load 'em up. Then work up slowly if so desired.
Nothing hard or complicated about this. --- SAWMAN

For what it’s worth, here is what Lyman has.
I’m using 2230 with a powder coated Lee c309-160-r (166gr actual).
I know it’s nothing near what you want but it’s a little something.
Attachment 1116

Thank you, I appreciate the help. I don't really need to know the exact recipes that Lyman is presenting, only the bullets, or bullet weights for hard cast, and the powders that they list. I don't want to infringe on any copyright or get anyone in trouble.

Thanks again!

Peace favor your sword (mobile)