Educated Guess on Starting Load

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12-23-2018, 06:57 PM
BradyT88

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Educated Guess on Starting Load

I have some 600 gr and 700 gr bullets for 500 S&W. I'll be shooting them out of an AR10 with an 18" barrel. There is virtually no written load data for them. The maker of the bullets gave me some load data with H110. Since I am shooting a rifle with a longer barrel I will likely have better luck with Lil Gun or CFE BLK. For the 700 gr bullets I am finding several sources that claim 30 gr of Lil Gun to be the Max (but that is the max for the 500 gr XTP's.) One source says 27.5 gr Max. For the H110 I am seeing 25 and 26 grains as the Max load. I have seen nothing on CFE BLK though. I suspect when people were developing loads for these bullets that the CFE BLK didn't exist yet. I can always start really low, but if I do would moving up in 0.5 gr increments or even 1 gr increments be too much? Otherwise I'll use up a lot of bullets...

Attachment 910
12-23-2018, 08:20 PM
Jbotto

I would probably send an email or reach out to your powder manufacturer to see what they recommend. It’s kind of a gray area with these more boutique bullet weights. I wouldn’t want to guess wrong.

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12-23-2018, 08:54 PM
BradyT88

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jbotto

I would probably send an email or reach out to your powder manufacturer to see what they recommend. It’s kind of a gray area with these more boutique bullet weights. I wouldn’t want to guess wrong.

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Hodgdon makes all 3 of those powders. I'm waiting to hear back from them.
12-23-2018, 10:02 PM
Muddydawg75

My educated guess is that you will end up using the H110.

I base my thoughts on the .510 Whisper... your seem to be headed that road, IMHO.
12-23-2018, 10:06 PM
BradyT88

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muddydawg75

My educated guess is that you will end up using the H110.

I base my thoughts on the .510 Whisper... your seem to be headed that road, IMHO.

Possibly. I know Big Horn Armory got better results with Lil Gun over H110. They figured it was due to the slower burning Lil Gun taking advantage of the longer barrel. CFE BLK is a touch slower than LiL Gun so I figure it may be better. I think I need to get these over 1500 fps to get them to stabilize for sure.

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12-23-2018, 10:10 PM
Muddydawg75

I'm not sure, .510 whisper is 750gr and flies about the same as a 45auto...

I'm very interested, and really want to know more about your project. PLEASE keep reporting back what you find, and if I come across anything I'll post up here as well.
12-24-2018, 10:12 AM
BradyT88

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muddydawg75

I'm not sure, .510 whisper is 750gr and flies about the same as a 45auto...

I'm very interested, and really want to know more about your project. PLEASE keep reporting back what you find, and if I come across anything I'll post up here as well.

Looks like 510 Whisper is intentionally loaded down to sub sonic and can be loaded quite a bit hotter if desired.
12-24-2018, 01:13 PM
SAWMAN

Couple of thoughts/considerations . . . .
* The bullets that you mentioned have an extremely long bareing surface. This will increase pressure most likely depending on the twist rate of your barrel.
* The 500S&W,460S&W,and chamberings that use the brass are capeable of 60,000psi.
* I am not sure what 60,000psi will do in an AR action with that much case head thrust.
Stay safe. --- SAWMAN
12-24-2018, 09:11 PM
BradyT88

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAWMAN

Couple of thoughts/considerations . . . .
* The bullets that you mentioned have an extremely long bareing surface. This will increase pressure most likely depending on the twist rate of your barrel.
* The 500S&W,460S&W,and chamberings that use the brass are capeable of 60,000psi.
* I am not sure what 60,000psi will do in an AR action with that much case head thrust.
Stay safe. --- SAWMAN

It's like 1:23 or 24. It's a bit slower than the Mode 500. I know Big Horn Armory proof tests the rifles at 90,000 psi, but that doesn't mean that can regularly handle that kind of force.

The AR doesn't have a cylinder gap to relieve some pressure though I think that when guns go boom they over pressure before the bullet has even left the case so that's probably neglible.

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12-25-2018, 03:12 AM
tabascoman

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12-25-2018, 05:30 AM
SAWMAN

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I have been shooting this NEF Handi Rifle chambered in 500S&W Mag for some years now. The bbl has been chopped to 18 inches and LOP taken down to 12.75 inches.It wears a 2.5X Leupold with heavy duplex.
I have tried quite a few different loads with this gun including the 350gr and 500gr Hornady XTP's. My hunting load is a 440gr WFNGC (hardcast) and I have several loads shooting lighter bullets at <850fps which are great fun on steel.
The 500 in a single shot action is great fun. The gun in the middle is the 500. Bottom gun is a 444Marlin and top gun is a 45-70.
Hopefully you can get you AR running properly at the >50K psi pressures.Personally,if it were my gun,I would shoot only jacketed bullets thru it. If it has adjustable gas that should help with the "tune" greatly.
What is the actual chambering of your gun ?? 50Raptor ?? 500S&W without a rim,right ?? --- SAWMAN
12-25-2018, 06:22 AM
tabascoman

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAWMAN

I have been shooting this NEF Handi Rifle chambered in 500S&W Mag for some years now. The bbl has been chopped to 18 inches and LOP taken down to 12.75 inches.It wears a 2.5X Leupold with heavy duplex.
I have tried quite a few different loads with this gun including the 350gr and 500gr Hornady XTP's. My hunting load is a 440gr WFNGC (hardcast) and I have several loads shooting lighter bullets at <850fps which are great fun on steel.
The 500 in a single shot action is great fun. The gun in the middle is the 500. Bottom gun is a 444Marlin and top gun is a 45-70.
Hopefully you can get you AR running properly at the >50K psi pressures.Personally,if it were my gun,I would shoot only jacketed bullets thru it. If it has adjustable gas that should help with the "tune" greatly.
What is the actual chambering of your gun ?? 50Raptor ?? 500S&W without a rim,right ?? --- SAWMAN

It’s probably the 500 auto max

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12-25-2018, 07:30 AM
BradyT88

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAWMAN

I have been shooting this NEF Handi Rifle chambered in 500S&W Mag for some years now. The bbl has been chopped to 18 inches and LOP taken down to 12.75 inches.It wears a 2.5X Leupold with heavy duplex.
I have tried quite a few different loads with this gun including the 350gr and 500gr Hornady XTP's. My hunting load is a 440gr WFNGC (hardcast) and I have several loads shooting lighter bullets at <850fps which are great fun on steel.
The 500 in a single shot action is great fun. The gun in the middle is the 500. Bottom gun is a 444Marlin and top gun is a 45-70.
Hopefully you can get you AR running properly at the >50K psi pressures.Personally,if it were my gun,I would shoot only jacketed bullets thru it. If it has adjustable gas that should help with the "tune" greatly.
What is the actual chambering of your gun ?? 50Raptor ?? 500S&W without a rim,right ?? --- SAWMAN

I was in search of one of those Handi Rifles for a while but they had been discontinued and used models were going for more than they ever sold for new so I didn't really want one that bad I guess. Some time later Big Horn Armory announced their AR500 chambered in 500 AutoMax and the price seemed pretty reasonable to me so I pre-ordered one.

I've ran some pretty hot loads through it already. I bought some factory ammo from Underwood to initially test out. 350gr XTP's rated at 2300 fps. I shot 10 of them the first time I took it out with no problems. Thy chrono'd just a hair over 2300 fps. Bought a different scope mount and took it out in July and zeroed the scope again. Ambient temps were in the high 90's. I would shoot a round, the next one would get chambered and be sitting in the chamber while I was looking through a spotting scope at the target. Since I previously hadn't had problems, I didn't have the chrono out nor was I checking brass. I blew 5 primers out of the 7 rounds I shot. One of the primers jammed into the star chamber with the next round and I had a pretty hard time getting it back out. Spoke with Underwood and BHA about it. BHA wasn't worried about the rifle. Only the bolt face if I fed it a steady diet of those. Underwood was surprised though. They said they thought they had done a good heat test of the rounds when they would shoot hundreds at a time through the rifle rapidly. When they recreated what I explained they ended up with the same result as me though and reworked their load and sent me new ammo. Their load was apparently good until you shot a certain way on a really hot day.

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12-25-2018, 07:37 AM
BradyT88

With that knowledge I was getting frustrated with my 300 gr Berrys work up using AA#2 so I shot my test loads right up to where I blew a primer out. Nothing... all 24+" three shot groups... luckily after that my 350gr Xtreme loads with AA#2 shot much better so I didn't shoot them passed the pressure signs.

The unfortunate thing to those light loads is that it wasn't until the very top end when I was getting pressure signs would they actually cycle the bolt and even then it wasn't enough to be able to lock the bolt back. Meanwhile those Underwood loads (the new reworked ones) are still pretty overgassed. This gun may involve adjusting the gas block frequently which is annoying since I have to pull the hand guard off to access it.

I guess I could load those Berry's down to like 1200fps or less and close the gas block and just hand cycle them for a light load but it sort of defeats the purpose of having an AR. Haha

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12-25-2018, 07:55 AM
SAWMAN

NOW . . I understand what chambering we are talking about. Same everything as the 500S&W but with some rim turned off . . correct ??
Yeah,the power here stomps all other AR10 type chamberings including Beowulf,Socom,Bushmaster. AND . . . coming out of 18 inches of bbl . . . the extra velocity in a heavy bullet ='s energy on target.
The hardcast 440's out of my gun can't be stopped.
Good luck with this project sir. I say - -> if your gonna go big . . . GO BIG !! --- SAWMAN
12-25-2018, 08:12 AM
BradyT88

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAWMAN

NOW . . I understand what chambering we are talking about. Same everything as the 500S&W but with some rim turned off . . correct ??
Yeah,the power here stomps all other AR10 type chamberings including Beowulf,Socom,Bushmaster. AND . . . coming out of 18 inches of bbl . . . the extra velocity in a heavy bullet ='s energy on target.
The hardcast 440's out of my gun can't be stopped.
Good luck with this project sir. I say - -> if your gonna go big . . . GO BIG !! --- SAWMAN

Yep. Completely identical to the 500 S&W. Could even shoot them in the revolver if you had one cut for moon clips. Might work in your Handi Rifle if there is a way for it to headspace without getting into the chamber too deep.

Yeah. I like to go big or go home on most things. Haha. I have a 460 Rowland kit for a 5.25" XDm and am hoping to get a Model 500 revolver to pair up with this AR.

My end goal with the Berrys and Xtreme bullets was to have a lower cost plinking load. The copper plated bullets are pretty cheap compared to all the other bullets and AA#2 is like $20/lb. But it may not be worth the hassle.

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12-25-2018, 08:23 AM
Muddydawg75

Now I’m really interested.... I’m building the 45Raptor....

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12-25-2018, 01:01 PM
BradyT88

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muddydawg75

Now I’m really interested.... I’m building the 45Raptor....

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I think the one advantage of the 45 Raptor is you can make cases from 308 brass which would be a lot cheaper than having to buy Starline Brass. Even 500 SW brass is spendy and then using a lathe to reduce the rim could leave some room for mistakes.

The other advantage I have heard is that the 45 cal bullets will have a better BC than the 500's but I doubt it significantly better by any means. Though there may be 1 or 2 that are pretty good I suppose. I haven't looked myself.

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12-25-2018, 03:06 PM
Muddydawg75

Well, the 45 Raptor makes sense for me because I already load 460S&W....

Maybe one day I’ll buy a 500

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12-25-2018, 05:59 PM
tabascoman

Quote:

Originally Posted by BradyT88

I think the one advantage of the 45 Raptor is you can make cases from 308 brass which would be a lot cheaper than having to buy Starline Brass. Even 500 SW brass is spendy and then using a lathe to reduce the rim could leave some room for mistakes.

The other advantage I have heard is that the 45 cal bullets will have a better BC than the 500's but I doubt it significantly better by any means. Though there may be 1 or 2 that are pretty good I suppose. I haven't looked myself.

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They make 500 am brass. 250pcs are 200 bucks. That’s bordering my 458 socom price lol. I agree. I’m debating a 45 raptor build. But I want something that shoots rifle bullets. It’s in my mind. And not gonna change. That I’d rather shoot rifle bullets. I’m thinking about a 375 socom now

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12-25-2018, 06:18 PM
BradyT88

Quote:

Originally Posted by tabascoman

They make 500 am brass. 250pcs are 200 bucks. That’s bordering my 458 socom price lol. I agree. I’m debating a 45 raptor build. But I want something that shoots rifle bullets. It’s in my mind. And not gonna change. That I’d rather shoot rifle bullets. I’m thinking about a 375 socom now

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Yeah I know they make brass. I bought a bunch of it from Starline. I said so in my post you quoted though I guess not directly. Haha. I was just saying you can make your own 45 Raptor brass from cheap 308 brass. The 500 you are pretty much stuck with buying it.

I'm not sure where the lands are on 45 Raptor barrels but if they allow you to load bullets the full length of an AR10 mag and you know someone who makes copper bullets they could probably make some decent BC bullets but they would be specific to the 45 Raptor.

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12-26-2018, 04:40 AM
Muddydawg75

You can make 45Raptor out of 460 with one of those tabletop toy lathes.

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12-26-2018, 04:58 AM
SAWMAN

"Problem" with the high pressure chamberings,when shot out of 10+ more inches of bbl than the bullets were designed/tested for,is the "extreme" velocity. The second problem is the bullets B.C. which is extremely low.
But think about it . . . I say . . so what. These pistol bullets were designed for the closer distances. They are pretty wide,usually with a broad meplate. These bullets were not designed to fly a long ways.
People have differences of opinion,but to me 200yds is about the distance that you should expect accuracy,energy transfer,and kill'ability on the larger game.
Install a smallish scope with BDC,like the Nikon's,jump on the Spot On program and you should be all set.
The big bore HIGH PRESSURE chamberings are a different game than the Bushmaster,SOCCOM,and the Beowulf. To me it is all about case strength (case web) and the weapon being built right,and I'm talkin' more than just bolt face and buffer + spring.
If you want big bore,stick with the high pressure chamberings. To me . . . the arguement of . . "no good bullets available" is not a valid one. --- SAWMAN