Bolt guns for prairie dogs

Here's my thinking on efficiency and simplicity, based on about 40 weeks in the field over the last 8 years. There are bound to be people wondering what to buy and why for these high-action shooting trips and this should be the place they start gathering ideas so feel free to pile on. :feedback:


Ruger .22-250 and .243 rifles got the job done on my first trip and convinced me this was my main focus in future shooting. Switching to .223 Rem was a no-brainer. Gobs of relatively inexpensive brass available, uses half the powder to develop 90% of the muzzle velocity with 10% of the throat erosion of the .22-250. Since I meander in the field for Prairie Dogs (PDs) carrying about 330 rounds, I also appreciate that .223 loads are smaller and lighter.


A Remington 700 Short Action Tactical (20" heavy barrel) rifle replaced the .22-250 and soon wore a Bell and Carlson Tactical Medallist synthetic stock which lightened the rifle a bit. Timney trigger, an AR magazine adaptor and a muzzle brake made it ideal.
Then I picked up a Stag Model 6 Super Varminter with its 24" bull barrel. Incredibly accurate, lightning fast recovery after every shot. It's difficult not to "chase" the PDs - fun, but terribly inefficient. However, it provided field experience with a semi for comparison.
I've since also used a Howa 1500 heavy barrel and a Mossberg MVP. I put over 14,000 rounds through that first Remington, thousands more through the Stag and Howa and about a thousand so far through the Mossberg. I am truly opinionated at this point. ;)


The bolt guns are for me. Here's why...

If for any reason a round won't chamber I can feel it immediately and stop forcing the bolt.
The semi often damages the round if it doesn't feed smoothly.


The direct impingement ARs blow gas back through the chamber camouflaging the case which lands 8 feet away in the brush. I'd rather shoot PDs than search for dirty cases. I admit I had some success with a catch bag on the AR. When full, it caused jams so I cut off the collection bag and simply used it as a deflector so the cases landed beneath the rifle. The deflector required constant adjustment to keep it in place. Many ARs mangle the case mouth and/or dent the case body. I don't need that. :angryfire:
From a sitting or standing position I can work my bolt quickly and catch the case in the air. It is never too hot to touch. From any position when the firing gets hot and heavy I can deflect the spent cases with my hand so they land in front of me in a polite, shiny pile, easy to see and collect.


When I've finished shooting in one spot I leave my bolt open to allow the chamber to cool and to prevent a round from heating up in a chamber that's just been heated by as many as 90 rounds fired in quick succession. I can clear the chamber of an AR and lock the bolt open but it's a separate action I might have to do a hundred times a day. No, thanks. Some bolt rifles have their bolt release levers mounted in (too) convenient positions beside the bolt. The lever can be tripped accidentally, releasing the bolt. Most inconvenient, indeed. I modified the release levers on my Mossbergs so they can only be pressed on purpose. The Remington release is inside the trigger guard and not likely to be tripped accidentally.


There is at least SOME velocity loss associated with the AR gas operation. Bolt guns maximize muzzle velocity. A small thing, but it's there.


Here's a real plus, though...if you started off with SRS processed brass you may very well reload cases until the primer pockets stretch unacceptably before you ever have to trim again and if you aren't anal about a jewelry shine to your brass, you might not even have to clean cases again...and from a bolt gun you can merely inspect, decap/neck size, prime, charge and seat to put the brass back in action. No case lubing, no tumbling, no media in the flash holes, no drying time, no mess.

Finally, an anecdotal plus - I have 4 .223 bolt rifles dedicated to PDs and a neck sized case from any one will chamber in any of the others!
I am indeed a lucky man.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sagela

Here's my thinking on efficiency and simplicity, based on about 40 weeks in the field over the last 8 years. There are bound to be people wondering what to buy and why for these high-action shooting trips and this should be the place they start gathering ideas so feel free to pile on. :feedback:


Ruger .22-250 and .243 rifles got the job done on my first trip and convinced me this was my main focus in future shooting. Switching to .223 Rem was a no-brainer. Gobs of relatively inexpensive brass available, uses half the powder to develop 90% of the muzzle velocity with 10% of the throat erosion of the .22-250. Since I meander in the field for Prairie Dogs (PDs) carrying about 330 rounds, I also appreciate that .223 loads are smaller and lighter.


A Remington 700 Short Action Tactical (20" heavy barrel) rifle replaced the .22-250 and soon wore a Bell and Carlson Tactical Medallist synthetic stock which lightened the rifle a bit. Timney trigger, an AR magazine adaptor and a muzzle brake made it ideal.
Then I picked up a Stag Model 6 Super Varminter with its 24" bull barrel. Incredibly accurate, lightning fast recovery after every shot. It's difficult not to "chase" the PDs - fun, but terribly inefficient. However, it provided field experience with a semi for comparison.
I've since also used a Howa 1500 heavy barrel and a Mossberg MVP. I put over 14,000 rounds through that first Remington, thousands more through the Stag and Howa and about a thousand so far through the Mossberg. I am truly opinionated at this point. ;)


The bolt guns are for me. Here's why...

If for any reason a round won't chamber I can feel it immediately and stop forcing the bolt.
The semi often damages the round if it doesn't feed smoothly.


The direct impingement ARs blow gas back through the chamber camouflaging the case which lands 8 feet away in the brush. I'd rather shoot PDs than search for dirty cases. I admit I had some success with a catch bag on the AR. When full, it caused jams so I cut off the collection bag and simply used it as a deflector so the cases landed beneath the rifle. The deflector required constant adjustment to keep it in place. Many ARs mangle the case mouth and/or dent the case body. I don't need that. :angryfire:
From a sitting or standing position I can work my bolt quickly and catch the case in the air. It is never too hot to touch. From any position when the firing gets hot and heavy I can deflect the spent cases with my hand so they land in front of me in a polite, shiny pile, easy to see and collect.


When I've finished shooting in one spot I leave my bolt open to allow the chamber to cool and to prevent a round from heating up in a chamber that's just been heated by as many as 90 rounds fired in quick succession. I can clear the chamber of an AR and lock the bolt open but it's a separate action I might have to do a hundred times a day. No, thanks. Some bolt rifles have their bolt release levers mounted in (too) convenient positions beside the bolt. The lever can be tripped accidentally, releasing the bolt. Most inconvenient, indeed. I modified the release levers on my Mossbergs so they can only be pressed on purpose. The Remington release is inside the trigger guard and not likely to be tripped accidentally.


There is at least SOME velocity loss associated with the AR gas operation. Bolt guns maximize muzzle velocity. A small thing, but it's there.


Here's a real plus, though...if you started off with SRS processed brass you may very well reload cases until the primer pockets stretch unacceptably before you ever have to trim again and if you aren't anal about a jewelry shine to your brass, you might not even have to clean cases again...and from a bolt gun you can merely inspect, decap/neck size, prime, charge and seat to put the brass back in action. No case lubing, no tumbling, no media in the flash holes, no drying time, no mess.

Finally, an anecdotal plus - I have 4 .223 bolt rifles dedicated to PDs and a neck sized case from any one will chamber in any of the others!
I am indeed a lucky man.

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Thanks for sharing this. It's definitely helped with my decision making process to pick up a bolt gun. My .223 AR's do the trick, but I'll never obtain the ridiculous accuracy I'm chasing with them.
I cut my teeth on a old Remington Score Master bolt .22 that is still the most accurate rifle I own even after 15,000+ rounds. [emoji16]

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Well, I've been taught by the man himself (SAGELA) so this isn't entirely an independent opinion, but I've found all of the same things to be true that SAGELA mentioned. I've been out there with both an AR and a Mossberg MVP-LR, and I much prefer the MVP. It's cleaner to shoot, it's easier to manage the brass, and I throw fewer bullets into the ground blasting away at a moving prairie dog. (Yeah, that last part is a shooter issue, I'll admit.)

Another factor for me is that I shoot suppressed. A suppressed bolt gun in .223 sounds just fine without hearing protection out there in the open field, whereas a suppressed AR has just that little higher noise that makes me a little uncomfortable. Also, a suppressed AR gets pretty filthy after hundreds of rounds! :punk:

This year I'll be taking my Ruger American Predator .223 as a backup gun to the MVP-LR. The MVP-LR is a nicer gun IMHO, but I think the Ruger will get the job done if needed.

My AR will be staying warm at home. :biggrin:

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Originally Posted by MadPick

Well, I've been taught by the man himself (SAGELA) so this isn't entirely an independent opinion, but I've found all of the same things to be true that SAGELA mentioned. I've been out there with both an AR and a Mossberg MVP-LR, and I much prefer the MVP. It's cleaner to shoot, it's easier to manage the brass, and I throw fewer bullets into the ground blasting away at a moving prairie dog. (Yeah, that last part is a shooter issue, I'll admit.)

Another factor for me is that I shoot suppressed. A suppressed bolt gun in .223 sounds just fine without hearing protection out there in the open field, whereas a suppressed AR has just that little higher noise that makes me a little uncomfortable. Also, a suppressed AR gets pretty filthy after hundreds of rounds! :punk:

This year I'll be taking my Ruger American Predator .223 as a backup gun to the MVP-LR. The MVP-LR is a nicer gun IMHO, but I think the Ruger will get the job done if needed.

My AR will be staying warm at home. [emoji3]

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Sounds like I've got some research to do on what rifle to go with... I've been leaning towards Savage or Ruger, but I'll definitely check out the Mossbergs.

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The MVP-LR is a little tougher to find, and more expensive then the regular MVP rifles . . . up in the $700+ range, typically.

[emoji106]

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Originally Posted by MadPick

The MVP-LR is a little tougher to find, and more expensive then the regular MVP rifles . . . up in the $700+ range, typically.

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Well, out here in PA, I have also chosen .223 to help eliminate our Groundhog issue.

I also use a Bolt action.

My choice was a Weatherby Vanguard, so where I saved a couple hundred dollars on the rifle, I spent that on the scope.

I picked up 2 MVPs for $500 each, new, 24" barrel versions. Different months in 2016, different stores. They are much cheaper than my Remingtons after their upgrades, just as accurate and a couple pounds lighter.
Drawbacks are the exposed bolt release levers, clunky bolt operation (only partly operator inefficiency) and an antiquated extraction/ ejection system they share with Savage rifles.
I carry replacement parts for the bolts but even working in a plastic bag I lose the little springs and balls that I can't control. Ugh

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by sagela

I picked up 2 MVPs for $500 each, new, 24" barrel versions. Different months in 2016, different stores. They are much cheaper than my Remingtons after their upgrades, just as accurate and a couple pounds lighter.
Drawbacks are the exposed bolt release levers, clunky bolt operation (only partly operator inefficiency) and an antiquated extraction/ ejection system they share with Savage rifles.
I carry replacement parts for the bolts but even working in a plastic bag I lose the little springs and balls that I can't control. Ugh

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Good to know, found some online for around $550, could probably find one second hand a bit cheaper.

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It's probably worth noting that we (the Prairie Dog crew Wes speaks of) spend rather little time at the bench. Our rifles are all entirely suitable for that but we move around a lot in the interest of efficiency as measured by hits/shot. The Prairie air is completely calm only when it's hotter'n blazes or colder than aitch. (Conditions as likely to drive US to ground as prairie dogs.) Average wind is 10-15 mph and like mountainous zones, it can be blowing right-to-left where you are and left-to-right where IT is. So to keep the hit count high we walk up the PDs, trying to keep shots down to about 200yds. We're human, we're shooters, so we reach out occasionally just to stay in the game but we recognize shots beyond 300yds carry greater risk of a miss. Once, in a still, target rich environment of very calm PDs, I managed 68 straight hits and with 3 two-fers and a triple, my PD count was higher, yet. Not the norm, however. And usually all PDs within 300 yds will go to ground by the time you've shot at 30 of them from a bench.

I need a phone app that keeps track of my shots and my hits for me. :biggthumpup:

I’ve always been a bolt guy. The heavier the better. The way I shoot prairie dogs, weight is not an issue. We pull up in a field along side a prairie dog town and set up shooting benches, and use the same rests we use at the range. My rifles are mostly trued Remington 700’s. Some have custom barrels some not. They are all glass bedded and have aftermarket triggers, some have lead in the stocks to weigh them down. Average rifle weight is about 12 lbs. we use 17’s and 223’s for out to 300yds. 204’s, 22-250’s, and 220 Swift’s out to about 600 yards. Then we break out the heavy 6mm’s and 6.5’s to shoot the far away stuff. I usually bring about 8 rifles on a trip.


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by sagela

It's probably worth noting that we (the Prairie Dog crew Wes speaks of) spend rather little time at the bench. Our rifles are all entirely suitable for that but we move around a lot in the interest of efficiency as measured by hits/shot. The Prairie air is completely calm only when it's hotter'n blazes or colder than aitch. (Conditions as likely to drive US to ground as prairie dogs.) Average wind is 10-15 mph and like mountainous zones, it can be blowing right-to-left where you are and left-to-right where IT is. So to keep the hit count high we walk up the PDs, trying to keep shots down to about 200yds. We're human, we're shooters, so we reach out occasionally just to stay in the game but we recognize shots beyond 300yds carry greater risk of a miss. Once, in a still, target rich environment of very calm PDs, I managed 68 straight hits and with 3 two-fers and a triple, my PD count was higher, yet. Not the norm, however. And usually all PDs within 300 yds will go to ground by the time you've shot at 30 of them from a bench.

I need a phone app that keeps track of my shots and my hits for me. :biggthumpup:

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That sounds like so much fun! My Grandparents had a farm and the ground squirrels became my duty to dispatch. I wish I had a number to throw out there, but I shot squirrels for years as a boy. Those were the best years as a kid. My dog, my rifle and countless acres to roam. [emoji16]

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by sagela

I need a phone app that keeps track of my shots and my hits for me. :biggthumpup:

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My shotgun has that.... GunPod2 bluetooths to my Beretta

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Originally Posted by Muddydawg75

My shotgun has that.... GunPod2 bluetooths to my Beretta

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Wow, didn't know about that. Thanks!

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Originally Posted by CodySPowell

That sounds like so much fun! My Grandparents had a farm and the ground squirrels became my duty to dispatch. I wish I had a number to throw out there, but I shot squirrels for years as a boy. Those were the best years as a kid. My dog, my rifle and countless acres to roam. [emoji16]

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I remember going through bricks of
.22s on ground squirrels in California. Now you have to have a prescription or something to buy .22s there. Montana's worth the drive.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by sagela

I remember going through bricks of
.22s on ground squirrels in California. Now you have to have a prescription or something to buy .22s there. Montana's worth the drive.

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That's what I hear. Maybe I'll find someone who knows the ropes to go with...

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Cody; "Just do it!" :>) MT dogs are still a problem for ranchers all over the NE parts of MT and coffee shops, post offices, gas stations in really small towns
contain people who know people - and a bit of polite conversation is about all that's needed to get referrals to places to inquire...before you know it you'll
have contacts too. My first trip 2 of us stopped along a highway and chatted up a guy fixing fence. An hour later we were established and shooting at a
place several miles down the road.

PDs are above ground from April through early November that I KNOW of. According to the Interweb they breed in March, nurse through April and the babies
start foraging on their own in May. So far, May is the earliest I've ever seen babies above ground so I tend to agree.
By the end of June all the PDs are about the same size, days are long and relatively mild and the roads tend to be dry...all my rancher contacts have recommended
"late June" as the time to show up.
Weather in April-May is often brutal; hail so large and hard it left bruises on my legs and battered the finish off my rifle and I almost couldn't see well enough to return
to the truck that had its lights on! October can be cold and snowy one day, warm the next. It is what it is. October, the rattlesnakes den up too, so they're moving around
to get 'home' and you can walk into a BUNCH of them in one area.

https://previews.dropbox.com/p/thumb...00&size_mode=3
Last month's camp - nice day before, decent weather for 2 weeks after.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sagela

Cody; "Just do it!" :>) MT dogs are still a problem for ranchers all over the NE parts of MT and coffee shops, post offices, gas stations in really small towns
contain people who know people - and a bit of polite conversation is about all that's needed to get referrals to places to inquire...before you know it you'll
have contacts too. My first trip 2 of us stopped along a highway and chatted up a guy fixing fence. An hour later we were established and shooting at a
place several miles down the road.

PDs are above ground from April through early November that I KNOW of. According to the Interweb they breed in March, nurse through April and the babies
start foraging on their own in May. So far, May is the earliest I've ever seen babies above ground so I tend to agree.
By the end of June all the PDs are about the same size, days are long and relatively mild and the roads tend to be dry...all my rancher contacts have recommended
"late June" as the time to show up.
Weather in April-May is often brutal; hail so large and hard it left bruises on my legs and battered the finish off my rifle and I almost couldn't see well enough to return
to the truck that had its lights on! October can be cold and snowy one day, warm the next. It is what it is. October, the rattlesnakes den up too, so they're moving around
to get 'home' and you can walk into a BUNCH of them in one area.

https://previews.dropbox.com/p/thumb...00&size_mode=3
Last month's camp - nice day before, decent weather for 2 weeks after.

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Awesome! Thanks for the info! Guess I'll keep loading up Zmax and plan a road trip next year. [emoji16]

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That’s how my friend and I did so many years ago, up in the Texas panhandle. Took a week off drive up there and just started talking to people. We still shoot some of those same places 20 years later.


JTD

I live in north central North Dakota and have been wanting to find a “dog town” to shoot on. We don’t have many in my area but there are a ton to the west. I guess I need to head west and start chatting up some farmers.


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Originally Posted by Kbeaton

I live in north central North Dakota and have been wanting to find a “dog town” to shoot on. We don’t have many in my area but there are a ton to the west. I guess I need to head west and start chatting up some farmers.


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It's worth the time, especially as close as you are. Stop in every small place you pass and ask. Often they'll give names and directions- seldom addresses.

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It's worth remembering these extremely rural folks aren't simple, they just live simpler lives than we do in Seattle, Dallas, Albany, etc.
They have and use computers and cell phones but the services are so iffy they haven't become dependent on them.
Amusing story with me as the 'butt of the joke'...

I'm way out in the brush shooting dogs but still within view of the ranch house when it got so danged hot
I left my prone position where I was absorbing too much radiant heat and returned to the truck...and remembered
I'd picked up an AC recharge bottle on the way out here but hadn't installed it yet... no AC.
OK, 20 more minutes of heat to endure. Lifted the hood and got started.
3-4 minutes later here comes a truck from the ranch house. Before he arrived where I was, I'd figured out what
he wanted... to help! He didn't know I was installing freon but the raised hood was like a smoke signal 150yrs ago.
He thought I needed help and he didn't have to think about it, he just came a-runnin'. And he was just a hired hand!

I can spend hours talking with folks like that - and usually I just mention I'm in the area shooting prairie dogs and
get INVITED to shoot at their place.

I went with family, my uncle did all the organizing. Everyone else just shot. ��. If I go again I will take a few caliber for different ranges. Probably .17m2, .218 Bee, 221 Fireball, and .224 Valkyrie. I have taken some PDs deep with my old .22-250 though. It may end up going.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sagela

It's worth remembering these extremely rural folks aren't simple, they just live simpler lives than we do in Seattle, Dallas, Albany, etc.
They have and use computers and cell phones but the services are so iffy they haven't become dependent on them.
Amusing story with me as the 'butt of the joke'...

I'm way out in the brush shooting dogs but still within view of the ranch house when it got so danged hot
I left my prone position where I was absorbing too much radiant heat and returned to the truck...and remembered
I'd picked up an AC recharge bottle on the way out here but hadn't installed it yet... no AC.
OK, 20 more minutes of heat to endure. Lifted the hood and got started.
3-4 minutes later here comes a truck from the ranch house. Before he arrived where I was, I'd figured out what
he wanted... to help! He didn't know I was installing freon but the raised hood was like a smoke signal 150yrs ago.
He thought I needed help and he didn't have to think about it, he just came a-runnin'. And he was just a hired hand!

I can spend hours talking with folks like that - and usually I just mention I'm in the area shooting prairie dogs and
get INVITED to shoot at their place.

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That's the type of people I grew up around, always willing to help. [emoji846]


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If any of you ever take a trip through PA, specifically my area, let me know. We can pop off groundhogs at 300yds all day....


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Muddydawg75

If any of you ever take a trip through PA, specifically my area, let me know. We can pop off groundhogs at 300yds all day....


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I grew up reading stories of PA groundhog shoots - the testing ground for much of the wildcat cartridge development. I'd love to.

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If you’re good at prairie dogs you’ll smoke the hogs.... they are much bigger, and if there is more than one it will run back to its hole to give you a chance to reload.




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Quit, man
You got me looking for travel money.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Muddydawg75

If any of you ever take a trip through PA, specifically my area, let me know. We can pop off groundhogs at 300yds all day....


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What part of PA you in? I'm near ocean city Maryland.

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York County, approx 20 miles over MD line


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Muddydawg75

York County, approx 20 miles over MD line


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I know some of that area. Used to go up to Cabin Fever Expo for a few years.

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Mostly I use a CZ rifle in 204 Ruger for varmint shooting. Don't get out for p-dogs often. Rockchucks and sometimes sage rats.

Ever thought of using 17wsm for pd hunting? Or you prefer to reload and not use rimfire?


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Originally Posted by reactorpwr

Ever thought of using 17wsm for pd hunting? Or you prefer to reload and not use rimfire?


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I’ve used the 17hmr for targets inside of 150yds, and as a walk around gun. I’ve never shot one of the 17wsm. I do say that I prefer my 22hornet and sporter 223 for the above mentioned jobs.


JTD

All good. Wsm over hmr to me is night and day difference. Results may vary


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by reactorpwr

All good. Wsm over hmr to me is night and day difference. Results may vary


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I was curious how much difference there was between the two. Apparently there is quite a bit. I was hesitant to get a wsm after having jumped on the hmr bandwagon, and ended up not using it near as much as I thought I would.


JTD

Quote:

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Originally Posted by reactorpwr

Ever thought of using 17wsm for pd hunting? Or you prefer to reload and not use rimfire?
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At least 1 of the ranchers I know uses a 17 caliber rifle for everything from PDs to coyotes but I confess I didn't learn which one.
And when he had PDs moving into an alfalfa field for the first time he set up a table, waited all day to get the very last one. With a .22-250
from 350yds out.

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Originally Posted by CodySPowell

Thanks for sharing this. It's definitely helped with my decision making process to pick up a bolt gun. My .223 AR's do the trick, but I'll never obtain the ridiculous accuracy I'm chasing with them.
I cut my teeth on a old Remington Score Master bolt .22 that is still the most accurate rifle I own even after 15,000+ rounds. [emoji16]

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If you want ridiculous accuracy with an AR you will have to pay for it. White Oak Armament Varmint uppers are the ticket. I've got a 24" 1:12 twist and 1-1/4" at 200yds is an every day thing and if all conditions right I can get 4 out of 5 in 1/2" at 200yds. Accurate enough? None of my other barrels come close for AR and for Bolt guns I have a couple that are close but it took a lot of load development.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 72Camaro

If you want ridiculous accuracy with an AR you will have to pay for it. White Oak Armament Varmint uppers are the ticket. I've got a 24" 1:12 twist and 1-1/4" at 200yds is an every day thing and if all conditions right I can get 4 out of 5 in 1/2" at 200yds. Accurate enough? None of my other barrels come close for AR and for Bolt guns I have a couple that are close but it took a lot of load development.

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If money wasn't an issue I'd love to build one...

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