QuickLOAD users

I have one for you Jay Andrew -

9mm in the Ruger PC

Here is what I am doing. I cast lots for bullets in zinc for other calibers with great success but here is what I need

I got a super deal on Winchester WSH powder it was one of those deals you do not pass up. I have been using it my 9mm with lead bullets with great success and sub sonic 223 55gn lead bullets and 30-06 in subsonic

Anyway here is what I am looking for. I am using the Lyman mold 356637 147gr 356 dia FN BB - using Zinc the bullet weighs 90 grains. I plan to be at 1.08 OAL. So what I need is to choose the WSH powder with the 147gn Lyman bullet and then change the weight to 90gns and get powder charge weight range to work with. I am thinking it would be around 4.3 to maybe 5.5 grs.

Not sure if you can help but I figured it is worth a try.

Thanks
Andy T

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Andyt2

I have one for you Jay Andrew -

9mm in the Ruger PC

Here is what I am doing. I cast lots for bullets in zinc for other calibers with great success but here is what I need

I got a super deal on Winchester WSH powder it was one of those deals you do not pass up. I have been using it my 9mm with lead bullets with great success and sub sonic 223 55gn lead bullets and 30-06 in subsonic

Anyway here is what I am looking for. I am using the Lyman mold 356637 147gr 356 dia FN BB - using Zinc the bullet weighs 90 grains. I plan to be at 1.08 OAL. So what I need is to choose the WSH powder with the 147gn Lyman bullet and then change the weight to 90gns and get powder charge weight range to work with. I am thinking it would be around 4.3 to maybe 5.5 grs.

Not sure if you can help but I figured it is worth a try.

Thanks
Andy T

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Hey Andy,

That's a interesting project you got going there. Casting in Zinc, I'd love to know more about how you're doing that, and your results. I've done some work with Zinc core used in jacketed bullets, and found them to have some really interesting properties, especially when it comes how they come apart when they hit steel.

I have a few challenges with this one....but I'll try and work through it...

Unfortunately WSH isn't a power that is recommended for use in metallic cartridges. This is due to the powder having some funky behavior when pressures start to get into that 25-35kpsi range. Thus QuickLOAD doesn't offer it as an option. With that said, if you are dead set on using WSH (Which I don't blame you if you got a good deal on it) then we can take a look at Win 231. Since Win 231 is a faster burning powder, your max load for 231 will be a little less then what will be used in WSH.

The bullet weight is typically the most important factor when considering the P/V data. QuickLOAD doesn't have that exact bullet, I used a Lyman #358495 which is a wad cutter, this bullet has more bearing surface then your bullet design. This will typically increase pressure albeit slightly, with the material being Zinc instead of Lead, it's hard to say how that will effect pressure and velocity other then to say it has some effect, and QuickLOAD doesn't have data for Zinc Bullets.

Now that I've aired the disclaimers... here's what QuickLOAD is saying:

Bullet: Lyman 358495 LWC
Bullet Weight: 90gr
COAL: 1.080in
Barrel Length: 4in (Assumed)

Attachment 1534

QuickLOAD is predicting that the max load is going to be 4.9gr of Win 231. Using this data, I would not exceed 4.9gr with WSH on my starting loads. I would recommend decreasing the load by 10% to 4.4gr. QuickLOAD indicates the pressure with Win 231 would be ~26kpsi, likely with WSH it may be a little lower then that.


Hopefully that helps. It's not the apples to apples comparison that most people would like to run, but hopefully it helps.

Thanks,
Jay Andrew
www.theballisticassistant.com

Thanks for getting back to me - Kenny (Eagle Eye shooting) has used this bullet made in Zinc. He did use Winchester 231 and has loaded it up from 5.0grns to 6.0grns the best accuracy was 5.3grns out of a 9mm pistol, with no signs of pressure issues. Now if you look at the powder charts Green dot is almost the same as Winchester WSH. I am currently loading 4gns of WSH in my 124grn lead 9mm loads and they are shooting great and accurate. Hope this helps in coming up with more/better data for the WSH powder. Also I am shooting this out of the Ruger PC in 9mm, not in a pistol.

As for casting with Zinc have great success. 1) you need steel molds 2) you can not use most bottom pour pots made today as the zinc will eat thru it. I found on Ebay the old saeco pot and the old lyman pot which is the same - bought a few of them and restored them. 3) you can ladle pour from a cast iron pot but it is a pain. 4) The zinc has to be around 820 degrees. 5) Zinc needs to be water quenched or it will grow in size when it cools slowly which will make it a bitch to resize. 6) all my Zinc is from wheel weights which the junk yard I get my wheel weighs charges me 30 cents a pound for mixed so I get maybe 20% lead 70% zinc and 10% steel.

Oh one more thing to get the weight of your zinc bullet multiply the lead bullet weight by .6 it will be close 147 x .6 = 88.2 but they weigh in from 89.8 to 90.4 at least that is what I get.

I do have a small channel on you tube and you can see me casting in zing and sizing.

Thanks for any info you can give me - I was thinking around 5grns of WSH

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Andyt2

Thanks for getting back to me - Kenny (Eagle Eye shooting) has used this bullet made in Zinc. He did use Winchester 231 and has loaded it up from 5.0grns to 6.0grns the best accuracy was 5.3grns out of a 9mm pistol, with no signs of pressure issues. Now if you look at the powder charts Green dot is almost the same as Winchester WSH. I am currently loading 4gns of WSH in my 124grn lead 9mm loads and they are shooting great and accurate. Hope this helps in coming up with more/better data for the WSH powder. Also I am shooting this out of the Ruger PC in 9mm, not in a pistol.

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Gotcha, then we aren't too far off.

There are some variables that can help refine QuickLOAD results. One of these is the capacity of the case. I am sure you are aware that pressures in pistol loads can be quite sensitive to the seating depth of the bullet. This is because the bullet will displace available the volume within a case. The same effect can be had if the case is thicker or thinner in the web. QuickLOAD uses an assumed value of 13.79gr H20. You can measure this by taking a primed case, placing it on your scale, zeroing the scale and then slowly drip in the water until the water is level with the top of the case. The weight indicated is the weight in grains. QuickLOAD will automatically calculate the volume displaced by the bullet and use the remaining volume for use in pressure calculations. If you are using cases with a little larger volume than typical, then we can expect to be able to put a few tenths more powder into the case without bumping up past service pressure.

I've adjusted the barrel length to reflect 16in. I'm not sure how I missed the Ruger PC...

Estimated Velocity: 1579fps

Just a word of caution, depending on the rifle, brass and primer used, you may not observe signs of high pressure, even if you are exceeding service pressures in a pistol load. Many pistol primers have the same cup thickness as their small rifle counterparts. Therefore they will not flow or otherwise exhibit the traditional high pressure signs of high pressure we may be used to seeing in rifle loads until you are in proof load territory.

QuickLOAD indicates that Alliant Green Dot is a substantially faster burning powder then Win 231 in this given load. Generating 43kpsi@4.9gr while Win 231 is 34kpsi at the same charge weight. Burn rate charts are a useful reference tool to see powers that MAY be comparable in burn speed, but remember they can shift around quite a bit depending on what the pressure and application is.

Thanks,
Jay Andrew
www.theballisticassistant.com

Thanks Jay

So then I guess my estimate of 5gns of WSH should be good to go. You did not put up a graphic for the green dot powder. Thanks for all of your help.

Andy

What information would you need to determine velocity?
Hear me out and look past my crazy idea. I’m looking to build an AR10 with a 14.1” or 15” bbl in 6.5 Cm. I understand how people feel about such a short barrel BUT this is just for fun and plenty capable. I would just like to know what I should expect velocity wise based on some factory loads.

Psh...please... I love crazy stuff ;-)

That's a good question, honestly I'd work up this load like I would any other. In your case I'd just need the bullet you intend to shoot. If you don't have a preference, then the bullet weight's you'd like to shoot. I'll run a generic bullet, probably a Sierra Matchking, or if your looking for a hunting bullet then a Gameking. If it's a copper monolithic then I'll likely use a Barnes bullet.

There will be a few challenges with this project, but I would love to see what you end up with.

Thanks,

Jay Andrew
www.theballisticassistant.com

Awesome! To be honest there were a couple things I am unsure of. The first would be twist rate because it is a shorter barrel (looking at McGowen and my options range from 1:7 to 1:10). That being said I would like to be able to run 120-130+gr projos if possible. I’m open to suggestions I just would like to find something to start off with so I know what to order in the future.

A shorter barrel isn't going to make much of a difference in for twist rate requirements. Your standard 1:8 twist rate is what I would go with unless you want to do something funky like shoot subsonic bullets.

You may laugh, but I'm working tailoring the twist rate on my 308 Win build to stabilize 250gr subsonic. That requires a 1:8 twist to marginally stabilize the long heavy bullet, but a 1:7 twist looks preferable. (Tangent over)

QuickLOAD predicts that a 130gr Hornady ELD-M will reach ~2450fps from a 14.5in barrel. The load out of a 24in barrel according to Hodgdon Reloading data will produce ~2700 to 2800fps depending on the load. That is roughly ~25 to 35fps per inch.

So when looking at factory loads, the velocity data will before a 24in barrel. If you subtract roughly 25-35fps per inch, you'll probably fall in the neighborhood of what you'll see from your rifle.

Hopefully this gives you a good idea of what to expect. Keep us posted!

This is very helpful thank you!! This will be a build I put on the back burner for now but I’m building a parts list. The goal now is getting my first suppressor and paying our debts down. My buddy and I were talking about a build like this and I got excited to do some research